Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

[Bill Putnam]

I give up. You win.
Your Kung Fu is the greatest.


[edited to make it clear that the comment was intended to be humorous, and no offense was intended.]

[eyecave]

the answer to all the insecurities and inconsistencies and errors on this issue is really quite simple..................stay outta caves............for now.......stay outta caves........... .....

[ArCaver]

the answer to all the insecurities and inconsistencies and errors on this issue is really quite simple..................stay outta caves............for now.......stay outta caves........... .....

It would be much better if we could convince those pesky little bats to stay out of caves, or at least to soak themselves in a 10% household bleach solution for 10 minutes in between caves just in case they've picked up some fungal spores.

[Batgirl]

the answer to all the insecurities and inconsistencies and errors on this issue is really quite simple..................stay outta caves............for now.......stay outta caves........... .....

Eyecave, I am sure that you mean well, but you should take some time to familiarize yourself with the facts. While it might be possible for people to transmit this disease, it becomes nearly impossible if proper decon is followed and is virtually impossible if you are not traveling between infected (where the spores are found) and clean caves (where they are not). At this time, based on the science, there is absolutely no reason that we should stop caving.

[Jon]

OK I may be lost here but isn't 409 antibacterial all purpose cleaner supposed to kill WN? Anybody hear of rope damage from it? Seems everybody is hung up on bleach. I've been soaking my gear in it (409AB) cause I kind of lean toward the bleach trashes fibers train of thought. Not nuts about UV as here in AZ everything plastic never lasts 1/2 as long as it should. So far the 409 AB hasn't trashed my boots nor left my clothes a funny color. Nor does it seem to hurt my floor mats or seat covers.

[PYoungbaer]

Hi, Jon,

The Antibacterial 409 works fine on hard and soft gear, if applied for the appropriate amount of time (10 minutes, then rinse and dry). It's the 3% quaternary ammonium compound that is the key ingredient.

This does not apply to rope, however. The only tests to date have been done on Sterling ropes, as reported here:
http://www.caves.org/WNS/Sterling%20Results.pdf

None of the other rope manufacturers have yet to do, complete, or announce any results - which I think is very unfortunate.

10% bleach works fine on coveralls, cave packs, other clothing, but AB 409 will, too. But don't use bleach on your rope repeatedly (see PMI's statement on single vs. repeated use - the second post on page one of this thread).

Hope that helps.

[wyandottecaver]

I have a suspicion that its been VERY fortunate for Sterling. I suspect they are or will as time passes be getting a significant amount of business as a sole source vendor for "decon approved" ropes to government agencies involved in cave work.....Of course some agencies may simply start to view ropes as single-use equipment rather than develop a decon infrastructure....which may explain the lack of enthusiasim for testing among other makers.

[Scott McCrea]

10% bleach works fine on ..., cave packs, ...

Works fine on some parts of some packs. Some pack materials may be damaged by bleach. Contact your friendly pack manufacturer if you have questions.

[Cheryl Jones]

I have a suspicion that its been VERY fortunate for Sterling. I suspect they are or will as time passes be getting a significant amount of business as a sole source vendor for "decon approved" ropes to government agencies involved in cave work.....Of course some agencies may simply start to view ropes as single-use equipment rather than develop a decon infrastructure....which may explain the lack of enthusiasim for testing among other makers.

I asked Steve Hudson at PMI about this. He said they long ago sent rope, webbing, harnesses, and packs to be tested with the various decon chemicals and procedures, and more than once. [deleted unfair conclusions! ]

I see the test report says "we worked with Sterling Rope." Perhaps at the time other cordage manufacturers were not invited to participate?

Cheryl

[PYoungbaer]

Cheryl,

My understanding from Dr. Hazel Barton, whose lab did the Sterling tests, was that the other rope manufacturers did not want anyone outside of their own labs to do the testing - either with the disinfecting agents, or the stress tests.

You may recall that we were working with NSS funds to get this work done, and contacts with several manufacturers were made, including PMI. All were invited to send materials. Elia Kagan was the primary contacting agent for the NSS, and made repeated attempts. Many gear manufacturers did submit items, such as cave coveralls, etc., and Hazel's lab tested many materials with many agents, which has led to the official USFWS cleaning and disinfecting protocols

However, only Sterling rope submitted rope for testing - both with disinfecting agents and for stress test.

So, the ball was and is in the rope manufacturers' court. We do not know to whom PMI sent their materials, nor why there was no response. I would hope that they would take renewed interest, as WNS is likely to be with us for a while.

[Hazel]

Perhaps I should clarify. We did receive rope samples from PMI, quite a few of them. We treated them - extensively - and returned them to the manufacturer for testing. That was over 3 months ago and we have yet to hear anything. This has been very frustrating at our end, as we invested dozens of man-hours in the treatments, with no result.

Hazel

[Cheryl Jones]

Hmmmmmmm..... Thanks for the scoop!

[PYoungbaer]

And thanks to Hazel for correcting my foggy 58 year-old memory.

[Smells_Familiar]

Bill and all,
If going the hot water route, the revised NSS decon procedures state that the water only has to be 122*F when submersing the gear for 15 minutes.
No need to boil or even approach 200*F. Long live our gear!