50C/122F Hot Water Decon Tests

[caverdan]

Discussion split from the USFWS WNS Webinar Presentations Now On Line topic:

I doubt the average washing machine will maintain a temp high enough for 15 min.

Really.....I'm surprised you haven't tried an experiment yet.

Not really wanting to waist too much hot water for this test, I filled my basic top loading washing machine with 3" of hot water and recorded a starting water tempature of 135 F deg. That is what my hot water heater is set at. My house is set at 69 degrees F. It snowed this morning and the wind is blowing and my outside thermometer is reading 41 degrees F. My washer is inside my house. Here are my very scientific results that prove to me....an average washing machine will maintain the proper decon temp for the correct amount of time. Save your dishwasher for dishes boys and girls. Wash your clothes and be done with it. Decon is no longer for dummies.
o minutes = 135 F
5 minutes = 132.9 F
10 minutes = 129.6 F
15 minutes = 127.7 F
20 minutes = 126.0 F
25 minutes = 123.3 F
30 minutes = 121.7 F

[Pippin]

I think we all need to repeat Dan's washing machine experiment. If cavers can just throw gear in the washing machine on the Hot setting, it will make it so much easier (and cheaper) to clean gear. I have a thermometer too, I'll test mine tonight. We should all do the same and post our results here since FWS doesn't seem interested in posting ways to actually achieve the 122F temp (or actually updating the protocols). Plus, I suspect they'll try to tell us that washing machines won't work.

[Scott McCrea]

Most hot water heaters are set in the range of 120-140 f. Say yours is on 140, which is scalding hot. Most washing machines don't heat the water, they just use what come from the water heater. Stay with me here... Best case scenario, 140 deg water fills the washer tub. Dan's test shows that it will probably maintain a temp high enough to decon. But, what happens when you put heat sinks (clothes, coveralls, knee pads, harnesses, etc) in the water. It will cool down and most likely come close to the temp where decon is not reached. Washing machines are also hard on gear. Especially top loaders. And, you can't, or shouldn't, wash your hardware in them. Wanna put your helmet in the washing machine?

Dishwashers are a better option. They usually heat the water. If not in the wash cycle, then in the dry cycle. Mine gets hot enough to make a ton of steam. I assume that is pretty hot. You can put hard and soft ware in a dishwasher. It's very gentle since nothing is moving around.

[John Lovaas]

I would bet that many(but not all) caver's hot water heaters are set at a high enough temperature to provide a 15 minute soak with a final temperature of 122F. As it turns out, my washing machine has a 20 minute soak cycle. The nanosecond USFWS pusblishes this info, I'll be forwarding it to every appropriate individual in the WI DNR and on the WI Natural Resources Board- after all, the WI DNR WNS plan was supposed to be adaptable...

I was curious about the significance of the 122F number, and came across this OSHA website on Legionnaire's disease and home hot water heaters:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/legion ... water.html

and these statements caught my eye:

(Hot water heater) temperatures maintained below 60°C (140°F) encourage growth of LDB and other microorganisms.

Maintain domestic water heaters at 60°C (140°F) and water delivered at the faucet at a minimum of 50°C (122°F).

Proper insulation of hot-water lines and heat tracing of lines can help maintain distribution and delivery temperatures at 50°C (122°F).

So while I'm saving money by keeping my water heater at a low setting, I may be culturing something in the tank or pipes- yikes. I'll be making sure I've got 122F water as soon as possible...

and I just checked- with my heater at its minimum setting, I'm getting 130F water at the washing machine. I do live in a very small house, with a very short run from the hot water heater.

[boogercaver71]

Washing machines are also hard on gear.

My wife says it is the opposite. I can't imagine firestorm that would erupt if I put cave gear in our dishwasher. That is why I wash my gear at a laundry mat, and use one of the big front loaders with 3 rinses.

[Pippin]

Dan's experiment inspired me to do one tonight with actual cave gear. My water heater usually stays at 125, so I turned it up to 135 and let the water warm up. Then I threw in a whole bunch of cave gear: seat harness, rack, carabiners, full Mitchell system, frog system, a safety, kneepads, pack, hardhat, various clothes. I filled up my washing machine with hot water, turned it off, and measured the temperature with a very high quality water thermometer and also a cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer. Here's my time breakdown, with readings from the really good thermometer (the other thermometer was about one degree higher):

5 minutes: 126.1
10 minutes: 125.8
15 minutes: 125.0
20 minutes: 124.4
25 minutes: 123.3
30 minutes: 122.6

After I finished, I simply drained the washing machine, I didn't run it on its full cycle. I fished out the metal stuff and ran the clothes through the spin cycle. Then I hung up everything to dry and turned the water heater down. Very easy and would have required almost no work if I hadn't been checking the temp every five minutes. I'm not ever going to use a dishwasher to clean my gear. Dishwashers are for dishes and I don't want a bunch of dirt getting in there. Plus, dishwashers don't submerge gear. Just stick your stuff in the washing machine, turn it off for 15 minutes, let your gear soak, then drain.

But Dan's right, decon will now be easy! Although I guess until FWS actually updates the protocols the hot water won't "officially" work.

[caverdan]

Way to go Pippin.

Scott..... as Pippin points out....you don't have to wash everything.....just soak and remove. I don't want to talk you out of using your dishwasher as your decon method.....but don't be upset if I turn down a dinner offer.

Last night we hand washed all our gear as normal, to get the mud off. Then washed all the clothes in the washing machine like we always do. When it finished I filled the machine back up and did as Pippin did.......put the rest of the gear in with it and let it soak. I had turned my water heater down a little from the last experiment so I started at 132.6 degrees. After 20 minutes with all my "heat sinks" in the water.....the temperature was still above 122 degrees by a good enough margin to satisfy me. I then removed everything except the clothes and turned it to the spin cycle to drain and finish the wash.

I say decon is no longer for dummies. You just have to be smart enough to check temperatures and tell time. But don't take my word for it.....try it yourself or keep doing it however you like.
Some people like the smell of chemicals on their gear.

I can't believe some of you are using your dishwashers. They might not be as effective as you think. You are not soaking your gear in the water. One of them spores might be hiding in the folds of your clothes and find a cool spot to survive in.

[BrianC]

Been using the wash machine for many years. Once after using the Lysol method, I almost got sick while breathing that stuff in a cave. None of this matters, because no one in CONTROLL cares less what cavers think!

[John Lovaas]

I can't believe some of you are using your dishwashers. They might not be as effective as you think. You are not soaking your gear in the water. One of them spores might be hiding in the folds of your clothes and find a cool spot to survive in.

Dishwashers run on their hot cycle may be just as good- or better- than passive soaking. If the hot cycle is set correctly, the gear is in a 160F, 100% humidity environment, getting sprayed continuously by 160F water. If the dishwasher has an NSF sanitizing cycle, the temperature is 180F.

I am speculating, of course. It might be a worthwhile research topic for a microbiology student. Dishwashers, run at proper temperatures, are designed to eliminate all sorts of nasty pathogens from residential and commercial dinnerware and cookware. These pathogens are often far more robust than Geomyces destructans has proven to be- Gd spores can't survice 90 days of exposure to 80F temperatures. There are fecal coliform bacteria that can survive for far longer than that.

Personally, I wouldn't use my dishwasher for cleaning gear because of all the places me and my gear has been...

[Pippin]

I think we should start a new thread with the hot water experiments and discussion so people can find this info. I'm not sure how to copy posts to a new thread...

[John Lovaas]

I think we should start a new thread with the hot water experiments and discussion so people can find this info. I'm not sure how to copy posts to a new thread...

Jennifer- I'd say just copy and paste the text from the experiments in this thread into a new topic post(with a title like "50C/122F hot water decon tests"). The moderators can move posts and create a new topic, too.

[NZcaver]

I think we should start a new thread with the hot water experiments and discussion so people can find this info. I'm not sure how to copy posts to a new thread...

Jennifer- I'd say just copy and paste the text from the experiments in this thread into a new topic post(with a title like "50C/122F hot water decon tests"). The moderators can move posts and create a new topic, too.

I split the topic. No need to copy/paste.

[PYoungbaer]

Damn cavers taking initiative again - separate threads, collecting and reporting data. What's the world coming to?

[NZcaver]

Damn cavers taking initiative again - separate threads, collecting and reporting data. What's the world coming to?

Chaos!!

[John Lovaas]

It's the old Homer Simpson quote:

"Facts!?!?! Facts are meaningless- you can prove anything with facts..."