We're FEMA and we're here to help...

Discuss training events, techniques, equipment, safety and related issues. Click here to visit the National Cave Rescue Commission webpage.

Moderator: Tim White

We're FEMA and we're here to help...

Postby NZcaver » Dec 29, 2005 11:25 pm

Check out this link -

http://www.emacintl.com/resource_typing ... 20Team.htm

Apparently cave rescue is a recognized resource under the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which of course is part of the all-powerful Department of Homeland Security. :wink:

And here's the index page, which lists other good resources for Keeping The Homeland Secure -

http://www.emacintl.com/download_center/

Well that sure makes me sleep better at night... 8)
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6359
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Re: We're FEMA and we're here to help...

Postby RescueMan » Dec 30, 2005 12:13 am

NZcaver wrote:Apparently cave rescue is a recognized resource under the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which of course is part of the all-powerful Department of Homeland Security. :wink:


While the goals of sharing a common language, a standardized command structure, and interoperability of communications are lauditory - it wasn't long ago that we considered this kind of centralized national control of basic societal functions to be either "communist" or "fascist".

"I have found the enemy", Pogo used to say, "and it is us" (or US).

- Robert
User avatar
RescueMan
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 7:45 pm
Location: Warren VT
  

Re: We're FEMA and we're here to help...

Postby batrotter » Dec 30, 2005 4:44 am

NZcaver wrote:Check out this link -



Apparently cave rescue is a recognized resource under the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which of course is part of the all-powerful Department of Homeland Security. :wink:



This is not anything new on a state level. Here in Indiana, the Law Enforcement arm of the Department of Natural Resources formed up a "cave rescue" division. They came to the Indiana Cave Survey wanting us to provide them cave locations in the event of an "emergency". We refused to give them any locations.

They had money to form their division while they were shutting down other DNR properties.
batrotter
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 9:20 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana
Name: Bruce Trotter
NSS #: 27849RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Cave Survey
  

Postby NZcaver » Dec 30, 2005 11:53 am

batrotter - you're right. It's nothing new to have law enforcement personnel play an important role in cave rescue, along with EMS, fire, caver volunteers, and many others in the SAR family.

I'll even go as far as to say having national "standards" - at least minimum standards - would not be a bad thing (sorry, Robert). Judging by that link, they are on the right track for most of their skill sets. My tongue-in-cheek remarks were directed more at the old quandary - why is FEMA part of DHS? And is DHS itself really necessary, or just another useless layer of bureaucracy..? :crazy:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6359
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Postby David_Campen » Dec 30, 2005 12:42 pm

And is DHS itself really necessary, or just another useless layer of bureaucracy..?


[sarcasm on]
DHS was and is necessary to show that something is being done.

To a bureaucrat, another layer of bureaucracy is never useless.
[sarcasm off]
David_Campen
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sep 9, 2005 3:06 pm
Location: SoCal
  

Postby CaveJunkie » Dec 30, 2005 10:20 pm

And is DHS itself really necessary, or just another useless layer of bureaucracy..?


I think that the DHS is mostly an attempt to group together many smaller organizations into one. If you had an organization that was "lost in space" it probably got scooped up by the DHS.....Anchored by the Coast Guard, FEMA, and Customs; the smaller agencies and directorites benefit from a larger lump of money thrown at them b/c of their inclusion in the "cash guzzler" that the DHS is.... :?
User avatar
CaveJunkie
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Nov 14, 2005 3:03 pm
Location: Jackson, Tennessee
Name: James Woulfe
NSS #: 56791
  

Postby RescueMan » Dec 30, 2005 11:30 pm

CaveJunkie wrote:I think that the DHS is mostly an attempt to group together many smaller organizations into one... the smaller agencies and directorites benefit from a larger lump of money thrown at them b/c of their inclusion in the "cash guzzler" that the DHS is....


I guess you haven't been paying attention. The regional FEMA response districts received ZERO budget after Michael Brown was given the reigns (sarcasm intended) of FEMA and it was subsumed under the monster bureaucracy almost identical to Hitler's Central Security Office (which he created after the supposed "terrorist" attack on the Reichstag [parliament]).

FEMA's primary function of disaster preparedness and response was gutted, which is why it was completely unprepared for Katrina. That, plus some nasty power politics - the administration withheld FEMA assistance for 3 days until the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana agreed to turn total control over to the feds and the military (martial law). That's why Walmart trucks full of drinking water were turned back and a Coast Guard offer of diesel fuel was blocked.

The purpose of the DHS is to centralize control of all domestic and foreign security operations under an all-powerful president who consideres himself above the law and the Constitution.

For similar reasons, foreign intelligence was taken out of Langley (CIA) and given over to the Pentagon's DIA and the president's NSA, both of which are largely unaccountable to Congress (we the People), 30 presidential orders gave the NSA authority to circumvent the FISA law and monitor all domestic phone and email conversations, and the DIA began illegally infiltrating and monitoring domestic peace organizations.

This is all Deja Vu. It is what preceeded Hitler's rise to power in Germany in the 1930's and it's what precipitated Nixon's near impeachment and resignation in shame for exceeding his constitutional authority.

The DHS is the cental cog of a national police state (aka fascism), along with the rapid erosion of civil liberties and constitutional rights (including 2nd amendment rights - the people of New Orleans were stripped of their LEGAL fire arms).

And, to top it off, the president wants Congress to overturn Habeas Corpus, the principle which has been a check on the abuse of power for 800 years.

Bush is following nearly exactly in the footsteps of Hitler, and no wonder - his grandad, Prescott Bush, had his banks and investment firms shut down by the Trading With The Enemies Act for supplying Hitler before and during WWII. And the secret society that Bush Jr, Bush Sr. and grandaddy Prescott all belong to, the Skull And Bones, is said to have connections to the German Illuminati and Nazism (this is from a native American petition to Congress to force the return of Geronimo's skull, stolen from his grave in 1928 by Prescott Bush and kept in the "Tomb" of the Skull & Bone Society).

See:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm
for more on the Bush-Hitler parallels.
User avatar
RescueMan
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 7:45 pm
Location: Warren VT
  

Postby bsignorelli » Jan 2, 2006 7:57 pm

RescueMan wrote: it was subsumed under the monster bureaucracy almost identical to Hitler's Central Security Office


How come there isn't a "rolls eyes" smiley on this DB? :notlistening:

Bryan


Edit: Never mind...there is one! :roll: Thanks NZcaver!
Last edited by bsignorelli on Jan 4, 2006 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bryan Signorelli
Little Rock Grotto
54238
bsignorelli
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Oct 4, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Arkanistan
  

Postby RescueMan » Jan 2, 2006 8:42 pm

[color=red]"He who forgets history is destined to repeat it.â€
User avatar
RescueMan
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 7:45 pm
Location: Warren VT
  

Postby mgmills » Jan 2, 2006 9:04 pm

[quote="RescueMan"][color=red]"He who forgets history is destined to repeat it.â€
Martha Mills
NSS 39864
User avatar
mgmills
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 1375
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:06 pm
Location: Sewanee TN
Name: Martha Mills
NSS #: 39864
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Dogwood City Grotto
  

Postby NZcaver » Jan 2, 2006 11:34 pm

Robert, you bad boy - you mentioned Hitler again... :kidding:

Don't speak too loud - Bush might take that as a compliment! :rofl:


bsignorelli wrote:How come there isn't a "rolls eyes" smiley on this DB? :notlistening:


Try typing "roll" between 2 colons, or click on "view more NSS smilies" - if you're still listening, that is. :roll:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6359
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Postby Outworld » May 3, 2006 11:02 pm

>>FEMA's primary function of disaster preparedness and response was gutted, which is why it was completely unprepared for Katrina. That, plus some nasty power politics - the administration withheld FEMA assistance for 3 days until the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana agreed to turn total control over to the feds and the military (martial law). That's why Walmart trucks full of drinking water were turned back and a Coast Guard offer of diesel fuel was blocked. <<


FEMA had NO response role until 1990 when Bush 1 established 24 USAR teams under FEMA. Prior to that FEMA was preparedness and $..No rescue response capability at all. Even now, the response portion of FEMA is NOT the major mission, although I suspect that will change. I am a Medical Specialist on CATF-4, a FEMA USAR team since 1991. Response capability has steadily improved since then, under all administrations, in fits and starts, but improved nevertheless. All teams were on standby and in readiness prior to and during the hurricane, all Calif teams moblized both the Swiftwater and USAR components, and some teams created another 1/2 team from the extras. All 24 teams were sent, all had varying degrees of success. Failures can be attributed to many factors, but a large obstacle was that state and local authorities were overwhelmed, underexperienced and micromanaged and often interfered with the USAR response capability. To place the blame solely on the Federal govt is to allow history to repeat itself. NO ONE learns a damn thing when the discussion about a rescue reponse turns into a diatribe with references to Hitler. That type of nonsense should be beneath a professional rescuer. We should focus on the accuracy of why mistakes were made, as there were plenty in all arenas, and the nature of the mistake and failures should be understood so that the same mistakes will not be repeated.
And no, I do not know why it is under Homeland Security either..another layer rarely helps..
Outworld
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 4
Joined: May 3, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: Belize, Central America
  

Welcome.

Postby Tim White » May 4, 2006 8:17 am

Welcome to the group, Bruce! :-) Glad to have you here.
Be safe,
Tim White 26949 RL FE

Southeastern Region Coordinator - NCRC
Editor, Nylon Highway
Senior Technical Manager - Over the Edge, Inc.
User avatar
Tim White
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Sep 8, 2005 11:57 am
Location: Suwanee, GA
  

Postby RescueMan » May 4, 2006 12:37 pm

Outworld wrote:To place the blame solely on the Federal govt is to allow history to repeat itself.


There was plenty of blame to spread around, but FEMA's disaster response responsibility click's in precisely when local and state response capability is overwhelmed, and FEMA is the only organization with the money and muscle and personell to orchestrate a multi-state response on the level of a major catastrophe such as Katrina. And, at that, it failed miserably.

Even the otherwise administration-friendly Senate has just issued a complete repudiation of FEMA and is proposing its dissollution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/26/AR2006042602576.html
"Hurricane Katrina exposed flaws in the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security that are "too substantial to mend," and FEMA should be dismantled and rebuilt inside the troubled department, according to the final report by Senate investigators."

NO ONE learns a damn thing when the discussion about a rescue reponse turns into a diatribe with references to Hitler. That type of nonsense should be beneath a professional rescuer.


You can dismiss it as a "diatribe" if you like, but if you'd look into both the history of the Bush family's connections to Hitler and Nazism and the current administrations' shredding of the Consitution and seizure of absolute executive power, you'd realize that the parallels to Hitler's rise and his transformation of Germany from a Democratic Republic to a Fascist State are accurate and frightening.

And no, I do not know why it is under Homeland Security either


Apparently you're not paying much attention to DC politics and the militarization of all government agencies. FEMA was subsumed under (and immasculated by) DHS because our current administration cares not a whit for "homeland security" but for stripping Americans of their freedoms and rights and turning this nation into a police state.

It's happening slowly and inexorably, like the slowly boiling froggy swimming pool, so that most Americans won't even know what hit them until there's nothing left of our freedoms.

Pay attention.

- Robert
User avatar
RescueMan
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 7:45 pm
Location: Warren VT
  

Postby Tim White » May 4, 2006 12:52 pm

:off topic:

OK...I let Bruce's post stay up as he posted it in response to Robert's and now Robert has had a chance for rebuttal. :duel: But we need to stop this line here. :shhh: This forum is under GENERAL CAVING-RESCUE, so lets keep it caving related.

No one wants to make me play the Moderator card, especially me! :boxing: :big grin:
Be safe,
Tim White 26949 RL FE

Southeastern Region Coordinator - NCRC
Editor, Nylon Highway
Senior Technical Manager - Over the Edge, Inc.
User avatar
Tim White
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Sep 8, 2005 11:57 am
Location: Suwanee, GA
  

Next

Return to Cave Rescue Techniques Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users