Here's on crazy cave rescue video.

Discuss training events, techniques, equipment, safety and related issues. Click here to visit the National Cave Rescue Commission webpage.

Moderator: Tim White

Here's on crazy cave rescue video.

Postby pedenpeden » Dec 4, 2006 4:39 pm

Here's on crazy-ass cave rescue video. They had to put the patient on scuba
gear and pass him under water while in a Stokes basket!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2&q=caving

Explore Media
7 min 38 sec - Apr 9, 2006
pedenpeden
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct 22, 2005 10:06 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa.
  

Postby Scott McCrea » Dec 4, 2006 4:52 pm

Nice! Anybody know where and what happened?
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Dec 4, 2006 5:58 pm

It reminds me of a rescue write up I read once so I'm guessing it was the same one....

From memory, I think the patient was a cave diver, and I remember that the report was full of praise for the patient and thier co-operation, how helpful and resilient they were. I'll post the article up if I remember where it is. :oops:
User avatar
fuzzy-hair-man
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Apr 6, 2006 2:09 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NUCC
  

Postby Evan G » Dec 4, 2006 6:53 pm

Those guys on the rescue are good, nice team work! And they where nice enough to give the caver a bath. WOW, what a video!!!
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby Squirrel Girl » Dec 4, 2006 7:27 pm

Well, the rescue was from Tarragona which is in Spain, on the southern coast, up near France.

If they had to get the victim back through a sump, presumably he had been a cave diver to get through in order to need to be rescued BACK through. They had a LOT of rescue personnel on the far side of the sump.

It made me wonder if this were a drill, but I think not.

:snorkling:
Last edited by Squirrel Girl on Dec 4, 2006 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Barbara Anne am Ende

"Weird people are my people."
User avatar
Squirrel Girl
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:34 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM
NSS #: 15789
  

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Dec 4, 2006 7:34 pm

Squirrel Girl wrote:Well, the rescue was from Tarragona which is in Spain, on the southern coast, up near France.

If they had to get the victim back through a sump, presumably he had been a cave diver to get through in order to need to be rescued BACK through. They had a LOT of rescue personnel on the far side of the sump.

It made me wonder if this were a drill, but I think not.

:snorkling:


Probably not the one I was thinking of then, as the one I was thinking of they had the option of getting around the sump, but going through was going to be much easier and quicker and given the patient had to get out quickly safer for the patient (provided they agreed and maintained thier composure whilst underwater).
User avatar
fuzzy-hair-man
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Apr 6, 2006 2:09 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NUCC
  

Postby ExtremeCaver32 » Feb 20, 2007 1:07 am

Nice vid. Awsome team work, and great rescue work.
Perfect use of the stokes basket. :grin:
"If you can see day light, Your not deep enough"
ExtremeCaver32
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 20, 2007 12:38 am
Location: Dallas, Tx
  

Postby BenC » Feb 20, 2007 7:35 am

I didn't think you could lift a Stokes Basket vertically. Or can you?
I refer all questions to a hyper-intelligent shade of blue.
User avatar
BenC
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 14, 2005 7:30 pm
Location: Lexington, KY
  

Postby Evan G » Feb 20, 2007 8:59 am

I didn't think you could lift a Stokes Basket vertically. Or can you?


Simple answer, yes. From what I have heard is that it is more stable than a SKED and very useful in open areas. It is when things get constricted that when the Stokes has a problem and a vertical restriction would be problematic for a Stokes.

This what I have heard, there are others on the board far more qualified that can answer the question.
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby Tim White » Feb 20, 2007 10:05 am

Regarding the "basket", actually a litter shown in the video...I suspect it is a specialized confined space rescue litter. It looks like it may be a Petzl Nest.

Image[/url]

In US cave rescue, we typically use either a Ferno Model 71 Basket Stretcher or a SKED. Both can be rigged for vertical or horizontal lift.
Image[/url]
Image[/url]
Most cave rescue teams have moved away from using the old wire basket litters, often referred to as a Stokes. As you can imagine the wire basket is very prone to catching and snagging on the surface of the cave passage. Wikipedia has a good description of a Stokes. A Stokes basket, also called a Stokes stretcher or Stokes litter, is a wire basket shaped to accommodate an adult in a supine position.
Be safe,
Tim White 26949 RL FE

Southeastern Region Coordinator - NCRC
Editor, Nylon Highway
Senior Technical Manager - Over the Edge, Inc.
User avatar
Tim White
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Sep 8, 2005 11:57 am
Location: Suwanee, GA
  

Postby Evan G » Feb 20, 2007 10:56 am

A Stokes basket, also called a Stokes stretcher or Stokes litter, is a wire basket shaped to accommodate an adult in a supine position.


Might well throw this out there for clarification:

Tim, am I to assume "to accommodate an adult in a supine position" this can be Vertical within the axis of the Stokes itself. I have seen Stokes used in a Vert position, but I have also told that rescuers prefer not too unless necessary because it puts the rescuee in a uncomfortable position and increases possibility of Shock. Is this true?
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby Stridergdm » Feb 20, 2007 12:30 pm

Let's start by saying anytime you put a patient in a basket, you're risking medical complications, vertically or horizontally.

Vertically though specifically, you do increase the risk because a patient with an already compromised blood pressure increases their risk of shock and passing out.

You are also forcing their body to support itself in an awkward position. Ideally they have use of both feet so they can "stand" in the litter (generally footloops or a board suspended). Often though if they're serious enough to be in a litter, they also may have other injuries that impact this. For example with one leg is broken, they now have to support their weight on the remaining leg.

If both legs are broken or even worse, there's a broken pelvis, putting a patient in a vertical position can be a serious health risk (since there's really no fully safe way to support their weight in the basket.) (Some of us have 1/2 seriously joked about bringing a can of expanding foam to "seal" them into the litter.)

(And of course there's the risk if you dont' know what you're doing, they'll slide feet first out of the litter. It's bad form to drop your patient.)

So, why do we do it? Because the alternative is worse and there's no other way. I mean ideally a patient will walk out.

Barring that, keeping them horizontal in the litter with adequate padding (and if a lot of time has passed, being removed so they can sit up, move around, etc.) is the next choice.

Lifting vertically is used only when necessary. (which with a lot of tight vertical passages, can be often.)

(Hmm.. thank god the chance of an injury in Flowing Stone is low... otherwise Diane's gonna have to blast that open since you're not getting a litter vertically or horizontally through there ;-)
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Postby Tim White » Feb 20, 2007 2:13 pm

:yeah that: What Greg said above.

Evan wrote:Might well throw this out there for clarification:

Tim, am I to assume "to accommodate an adult in a supine position" this can be Vertical within the axis of the Stokes itself. I have seen Stokes used in a Vert position, but I have also told that rescuers prefer not too unless necessary because it puts the rescuee in a uncomfortable position and increases possibility of Shock. Is this true?
Be safe,
Tim White 26949 RL FE

Southeastern Region Coordinator - NCRC
Editor, Nylon Highway
Senior Technical Manager - Over the Edge, Inc.
User avatar
Tim White
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Sep 8, 2005 11:57 am
Location: Suwanee, GA
  

Postby Evan G » Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm

Thank You both for the replies!!! :-)
Evan G
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mar 12, 2006 2:52 pm
Location: Breckenridge, CO
Name: EEG
NSS #: 28685
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NRMG
  

Postby Stridergdm » Feb 20, 2007 3:19 pm

Evan wrote:Thank You both for the replies!!! :-)


No problem. (I realize I answered the question you put to Tim, but as I've got way to much free time these days, figured I'd jump in.)

I know since I've started learning cave rescue I've started to cave with the thought, "ok, how would I get a litter through THIS?" (I'll bet Tim's done this too :-)

I should mention that different parts of the country will tend to favor different litters also.

Around here we use and train almost exclusively with SKEDs. They fit a lot better in NY caves.

In TAG, I know a lot of training (I don't know actual % of rescues, Tim?) is with fernos. These can be a bit more comfortable for a patient, etc.

One area where the SKED can work better is in that pelvic/leg injury with no way to support the patient. With a SKED you can basically make them into a burrito and spread out the friction that in theory will help hold them in place. It's tough to tell from that photo, but a sked basically is very flexible and once you put a patient in it, you strap it down and it sort of "wraps" around them.

Makes for a nice tight package. Which is why we use them in NY.

But a Ferno can be more comfortable if you have to drag it, lift it horizontally, etc.

(and there are cases where you'll put the patient in a SKED... and as required/permitted, toss the SKED into a Ferno.)

Ok, I've rambled on enough now.
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Next

Return to Cave Rescue Techniques Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users