Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

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Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby amaddox » Jul 14, 2009 8:23 pm

I was cruzing through YouTube and came across this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2E0EBEgj8I
:kewl:

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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby buddyh » Nov 29, 2009 12:36 am

:down:
Hopefully they were in a commercial cave, If not I see so many things wrong with the caving in the video. Hopefully these scouts were not injured as the evidence is posted for anyone to view including a jury. I hope the guide explained the that they were not caving properly and what proper caving entails. Hopefully the NSS Youth Group outreach program will change this.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby ArCaver » Nov 29, 2009 6:00 am

Raccoon Mountain Caverns is a commercial cave. I didn't see anything in the video suggesting the boys were in any danger except for sugary snacks leading to tooth decay and bacon possibly causing cholesterol problems later in life. Oh, and that one kid needs a sharper ax.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby Mudduck » Nov 29, 2009 10:51 am

buddyh wrote::down:
Hopefully they were in a commercial cave, If not I see so many things wrong with the caving in the video. Hopefully these scouts were not injured as the evidence is posted for anyone to view including a jury. I hope the guide explained the that they were not caving properly and what proper caving entails. Hopefully the NSS Youth Group outreach program will change this.


Granted I did'nt listen to audio but other than a kid removing a chin strap, what did I miss? :shrug: Guess I'll watch again.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby Mudduck » Nov 29, 2009 10:58 am

Ok watched it again still don't get it...
buddyh wrote::down:
Hopefully they were in a commercial cave, If not I see so many things wrong with the caving in the video. Hopefully these scouts were not injured as the evidence is posted for anyone to view including a jury. I hope the guide explained the that they were not caving properly and what proper caving entails. Hopefully the NSS Youth Group outreach program will change this.

I saw one kid in a flat, high ceiling area briefly remove is helmet. I saw gloves, knee pads, helmets with straps, and head mounted lighting. As far as in the camp, they need an established ring around the wood cutting area but nonone, as clearly seen in the video, was anywhere near the guy with ax. Now I think bowsaws are better buts thats just personal. Please explain yourself, I goota know what I missing.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby caverdan » Nov 29, 2009 12:20 pm

buddyh wrote::down:
Hopefully they were in a commercial cave, If not I see so many things wrong with the caving in the video. Hopefully these scouts were not injured as the evidence is posted for anyone to view including a jury. I hope the guide explained the that they were not caving properly and what proper caving entails. Hopefully the NSS Youth Group outreach program will change this.


Welcome to the discussion board, Buddy. I'm not really seeing what your talking about either? Could it be the number of kids per adult ratio? For scouting I believe it should be 2 to 1.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby amaddox » Nov 29, 2009 3:18 pm

http://www.raccoonmountain.com/html/cave.html

If you read the text and google what is written you'd find this. It is a commercial cave. They provide just about everything. When a BSA Unit caving activity is run by a commercial outfitter (commercial cave), the outfitters rules superceed BSA's wild cave policies. What ever Racoon Mountain Cave guides (the ones in the white helmets) say the BSA Troop (the ones in the blue helmets) does.

I really appreciate your faith that the Youth Group Liaison Committee has so much clout as to enforce the policies of other organizations. BSA, GSUSA, Heritage Girls, YMCA and all the other organization have the responibilitiy of enforcing their own rules. That's not our job. We just try to help them create a fun and safe caving activity while observing their organization's rules and guidlines. Going through a commercial outfit like Racoon Moutain Cave is what is encouraged, for at least the first trip. The liability and ownership of the program is that of the outfitter and the BSA Unit.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby NZcaver » Nov 29, 2009 3:52 pm

After all the talk, I had to see the video for myself. I didn't notice anything particularly bad at all. :shrug:

I saw kids having fun. Maybe some will even grow up to become cavers. :big grin:
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby Mudduck » Nov 29, 2009 4:21 pm

NZcaver wrote:After all the talk, I had to see the video for myself. I didn't notice anything particularly bad at all. :shrug:

I saw kids having fun. Maybe some will even grow up to become cavers. :big grin:

I took my troop to Racoon Mountain and did the camp-in-cave wild tour. We went on about a two hour wild tour with ages 11 to adult. The guides were very knowledgeable and helpful. Safety was paramount and the provided gear was exceptable. The guides we had were exceptional dealing with youth and I was quite impressed with their knowledge. I found it to be an excellent beginner cave with maybe one tight area that was a little hairy for a non caver. All of my Scouts since that trip wanna go caving at every chance. We were doing some cleanups in some abused caves in an Alabama NF but of course that ended with WNS for the time being anyway so we're heading to Tumbling Rock in December. I feel like Racoon Mountain is perfect as a primer to prepare youth for caving and they even have a campground outside if you prefer not to sleep in the cave. I don't mean for this to sound like "shameless plugging" for their business but I found them to be very safe and professionally oriented. Its definately a blast. :tonguecheek:
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby buddyh » Nov 30, 2009 12:04 am

As I wrote, I hoped it was a commercial cave and it looks like it was from the later post. What I did not see is are the items items each caver should have according to the posted equipment list. I feel that when ever a person is introduced to caving they should go as prepared and encumbered as a real/experienced caver would. I always require each participant to be fully outfitted. In addition to the posted gear list each participant has their own First Aid Kit. The is point made that if each person brings a small First Aid Kit the group has a large First Aid Kit. In addition the gear goes everywhere with the participant. They do not leave it behind and they are responsible for making sure that they are never separated.

I want each participant to have a real caver experience. I never want them to join a grotto and have to be retrained. I much prefer to have them join as competent newbies. I've seen too many second, third, fourth time newbie cavers without the basic as a result of not having a complete intro to caving.

But since they were in a commercial cave, I understand the lackadaisical intro.

I have recorded a 45 minute video to prepare newbies for caving. Since I mostly deal with Scout groups, the title is" Be Prepared to go Caving."

Remember these are my opinions as a trip leader/instructor.

Cave Softly,
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby ArCaver » Nov 30, 2009 9:16 am

buddyh wrote:As I wrote, I hoped it was a commercial cave and it looks like it was from the later post. What I did not see is are the items items each caver should have according to the posted equipment list. I feel that when ever a person is introduced to caving they should go as prepared and encumbered as a real/experienced caver would. I always require each participant to be fully outfitted. In addition to the posted gear list each participant has their own First Aid Kit. The is point made that if each person brings a small First Aid Kit the group has a large First Aid Kit. In addition the gear goes everywhere with the participant. They do not leave it behind and they are responsible for making sure that they are never separated.

I want each participant to have a real caver experience. I never want them to join a grotto and have to be retrained. I much prefer to have them join as competent newbies. I've seen too many second, third, fourth time newbie cavers without the basic as a result of not having a complete intro to caving.

But since they were in a commercial cave, I understand the lackadaisical intro.

I have recorded a 45 minute video to prepare newbies for caving. Since I mostly deal with Scout groups, the title is" Be Prepared to go Caving."

Remember these are my opinions as a trip leader/instructor.

Cave Softly,
BuddyH


That sounds like a good policy, although I take a lot of people on their first caving trip and usually make sure they are less encumbered than I am so they can concentrate on enjoying the cave. Most ask what I have in my pack and why, and if they care to cave again they start accumulating their own gear. I would like to see your video. Is it posted online?
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby Mudduck » Nov 30, 2009 9:30 am

ArCaver wrote:That sounds like a good policy, although I take a lot of people on their first caving trip and usually make sure they are less encumbered than I am so they can concentrate on enjoying the cave.


Thats exactly right. In fact as a leader/ instructor I spent the following two months once a week after our Racoon Mountain trip going over caving safety and etiquette. Most boys are in awe of what they're doing and I like them to focus on that enjoyment, thus the reason for a "wild" commercial cave. Racoon Mountain has set up bathroom buckets with privacy curtains and also about every 150 feet they had emergency kit and gear. They (Racoon Mountain) had it covered.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby BrianC » Nov 30, 2009 11:51 am

Looks like those scouts had a wonderful memorable trip! :kewl:
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby buddyh » Nov 30, 2009 8:44 pm

Thanks for the affirmation.

I find the participants don't feel encumbered by their caving packs. It makes them feel like real cavers the on their first trip. In fact it actually increases teamwork and responsibility. I always include a snack break using the "high energy food ration" they packed. As for the pee bottle, they actually take pride in bringing out their "lemon aid". I do a 1 candle power segment where I ask someone to light their candle. The youth are especially enthusiastic to use their candle and I often end up with several lit and then put them out one at a time till we are in TCD. I often challenge them to bring out or collect from the surrounding area one piece of trash. My program has evolved over the past decade adding and dropping what works and what doesn't.

We often meet other groups being led through the cave. I often hear statements or receive questions from my group about how unprepared the groups we meet are. Many times members of the other groups start asking questions of my group and end up educating the other group. This is true whether caving, climbing, paddling or any of the other adventures I lead or participate in.

The joy of introducing youth and adults to safe caving is why we lead.
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Re: Troop 370- Caving Trip 2008

Postby amaddox » Nov 30, 2009 9:35 pm

Buddy, you do make a good point about starting good habits early on. There is a difference between taking the kids caving and teaching them to be safe, responsible cavers.
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