Cavers vs. General Population

[muddyface]

As I go caving more and more and introduce first timers to the sport, I find that there seems to be a certain undefinable personality trait that unites people who are really into caving. I don't know if anyone has ever compiled the statistics or done any sort of demographic study, but I have wondered if cavers as a group differ from the rest of the population in things like life expectancy, marriage and divorce rates, average income, cancer rates, rates of communicable disease infections, birth rates, racial and ethnic diversity, the ratio of men to women, and the possibility for some sort of abnormal psychology (I know mine is quite strange). For many years I enjoyed caving but did not do it often, then suddenly last fall I "caught the bug" and now I am completely hooked, but maybe there is something more to "the bug" than just caving.

[self-deleted_user]

Yeah. We all have WNS it just manifests differently in humans, it makes us addicted to caves, like a drug.

And I think it's definitely known that it's about a 9:1 male:female ratio :P and yet still no caver bf for Amy, whatdup with that? =P

[commanderzoom]

Yeah. We all have WNS it just manifests differently in humans, it makes us addicted to caves, like a drug.

And I think it's definitely known that it's about a 9:1 male:female ratio :P and yet still no caver bf for Amy, whatdup with that? =P

Charlie Sheen definitely has WNS . Bet he'd make a great caver.

I have a diagnosed mental illness & so does my husband and we both love caving. Maybe all cavers are just crazy.

[mgmills]

As I go caving more and more and introduce first timers to the sport, I find that there seems to be a certain undefinable personality trait that unites people who are really into caving. I don't know if anyone has ever compiled the statistics or done any sort of demographic study, but I have wondered if cavers as a group differ from the rest of the population in things like life expectancy, marriage and divorce rates, average income, cancer rates, rates of communicable disease infections, birth rates, racial and ethnic diversity, the ratio of men to women, and the possibility for some sort of abnormal psychology (I know mine is quite strange). For many years I enjoyed caving but did not do it often, then suddenly last fall I "caught the bug" and now I am completely hooked, but maybe there is something more to "the bug" than just caving.

The one thing I've found about cavers is they come from all walks of life. Laborers, unemployed, teachers, professors, doctors, lawyers, dentist, nurses, business men and women, writers, musicians, policemen, firemen, and just about any job or profession you can name. Personally, I've see more people with abnormal psyches outside the caving community than within the caving community. I think that people who enjoy exploring natural areas like caves and wilderness areas gain a sort of stability from their connection with nature.

May be slightly but I recently heard someone relating a story about a conversation with a salesman or something and the topic of caving came up and the person told the caver "you don't look like a caver" and the person said she wondered "what a caver looks like" . . . Also, I once was in a checkout line writing a check (back in the day before debit cards) and due to my caving shirt the cashier had determined I was a caver. Those old enough to remember writing checks will know they used to ask for place of employment. The cashier said to me "I guess since you are a caver you aren't employed."

[Teresa]

There used to be a Human Sciences section which looked into this question, but they went underground.

The M-F ratio is actually closer to 4 to 1 than 9 to 1. Varies by location. There is an abnormally high number of lefties amongst cavers. (In every group that question has been asked it is generally 4R to 1L whereas in the general population it is 9R to 1L. Other demographics are different by region: in cave poor areas the caver demographic is richer; in cave rich areas, it is poorer, and has to do with distance needing to be traveled and expense to get there. Two traits that I find rank high amongst cavers are curiosity, tolerance for unusual behavior in self and others, and a general disregard for lemming-like "me too" behavior. Number of children depends if it is a caver-caver marriage or a caver-non caver marriage. Caver-cavers tend to have fewer or no children, whereas caver-noncaver (which is usually a caver M and non-caver F) tend towards the societal norm.

Cavers tend to be more informal and more casual in most circumstances and worry less about what strangers think of them. While there are gregarious cavers, many tend to be individualistic rather than conformist, although most will conform to caver safety edicts. They tend to be more "out there" along the edge in some aspect of their lives than their non-caver relatives and friends, often having some background of social ostracism as a child which led them to be self-determining rather than running with the crowd.

Other than that....go do your own research. It's the caver thing to do.

[commanderzoom]

There used to be a Human Sciences section which looked into this question, but they went underground.

The M-F ratio is actually closer to 4 to 1 than 9 to 1. Varies by location. There is an abnormally high number of lefties amongst cavers. (In every group that question has been asked it is generally 4R to 1L whereas in the general population it is 9R to 1L. Other demographics are different by region: in cave poor areas the caver demographic is richer; in cave rich areas, it is poorer, and has to do with distance needing to be traveled and expense to get there. Two traits that I find rank high amongst cavers are curiosity, tolerance for unusual behavior in self and others, and a general disregard for lemming-like "me too" behavior. Number of children depends if it is a caver-caver marriage or a caver-non caver marriage. Caver-cavers tend to have fewer or no children, whereas caver-noncaver (which is usually a caver M and non-caver F) tend towards the societal norm.

Cavers tend to be more informal and more casual in most circumstances and worry less about what strangers think of them. While there are gregarious cavers, many tend to be individualistic rather than conformist, although most will conform to caver safety edicts. They tend to be more "out there" along the edge in some aspect of their lives than their non-caver relatives and friends, often having some background of social ostracism as a child which led them to be self-determining rather than running with the crowd.

Other than that....go do your own research. It's the caver thing to do.

HEY! That almost describes me & my husband exactly! Oh, and my mom who's also a caver.

Me & Ronnie:

Lefty or Righty: He's a righty, I'm ambidextrous but prefer to use my right hand because I grew up using those right handed desks in school. It was just easier to use my right in that environment.

Location & income: Cave rich area, we're fairly poor. Especially since I've been unemployed so I really should start looking harder for a job.

Curiosity: I'm one of those people who would go to college just to learn if I could afford it without caring about a degree. Ronnie's always taking things apart just to see how they work.

Tolerance for unusual behavior in self and others: Uhhh...my FB profile pic is of me & my blow-up Doll Waylon . He's far from the most unusual thing I've ever done & my husband doesn't think I'm the slightest bit weird. He's not as obviously out there as I can be due to his social anxiety but he does some pretty strange things himself. Ex: We're both Bipolar Type 1 (we go all out when we cycle instead of getting the water down version BP2's get) and NEITHER of us noticed anything "off" about the other until about 2 years into our relationship despite both of us being unmedicated. As for tolerance for others, we're probably some of those most tolerant people in the world & takes a lot to make either of us ditch someone for good. Ask jsniffin about the walking freakshow we had with us back in late January.

General disregard for sheeples: We're friends with some but only because they sort of latched onto us. We're much closer to and do better with the more individualistic crowd. I know this makes me an arsehole but I'll admit that I do kind of look down my nose at people who always follow the crowd just because everyone else is.

Number of children: 4 but 1 died in infancy. That's a little high for cavers but it's all Ronnie's fault . I never wanted kids because I *still* don't quite know how to relate to them & was clueless 11 years ago, he wanted 10, so we compromised. I had a tubal after my last pregnancy & he's STILL a little p!ssy about it but crap but I think I've been more than fair. We take all 3 caving sometimes & started 2 years ago when the youngest was 2. It might have been a little earlier, I suffer from CRS.

More informal & casual: No doubt about it. Too bad I'm a little *too* casual when it comes to being on time for things--I made it to work on time or slightly early maybe 5 times in the 3 years I worked at my last job. It was a nursing home & a lot of the other CNAs called the residents Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so until they got to know them really well whereas I always called them by their first name unless they asked me not to. I also used to really get to know the residents through casual conversation (*gasp!* I treated them like people!) while most of my co-workers never bothered. I still go into see a couple of them once in awhile. No wonder all those old people just loved me.

"Out there" in some aspect of our lives: Yep. That's all I'm going to say about that.

Background in social ostracism: Ehhh....not so much with ourselves but we both had a special place in our hearts for those who did get picked on (esp. the special ed kids) & would defend them no matter what the circumstances. Growing up my 3 years younger brother got picked on until he hit high school but wouldn't stand up for himself. I delivered a physical beat down to countless little brats who wouldn't leave him alone after being told to. Ronnie & I both got into physical & verbal fights defending the kids who were always getting picked on. As for us, we were both really popular in our schools but it was because of who we were/are not because of our clothes, cars, or anything else superficial.

As for mom: About the same as me & Ronnie with a couple major differences. She's a righty, cave rich area BUT she's far from poor although her & Dad like to give off the impression that they're broke, she's curious about everything & always on the internet looking stuff up, tolerance is extremely high, she's never understood people who blindly follow the crowd, she has 2 kids but wanted a lot more--had at least 3 miscarriages of planned pregnancies (Dad's a non-caver but he grew up exploring off trail in Onondaga), she's pretty casual & stopped wearing her partial plate (2 of her front teeth went bad as a kid/teen) around Ronnie after knowing him only a month or two & I've never seen her get dressed up for anything, and she was really shy as a kid & got teased by some of her schoolmates because of it. Is being a millionaire but wearing old clothes all the time, never getting professional haircuts, never going out or spending money in general, and living in a doublewide considered "out there"? Then she & Dad are "out there"

Some of our weirdo friends share quite a few similar traits as me & Ronnie but when we tried taking them caving they hated it. I think the curiosity factor is a huge one--these people just weren't curious to wonder what was hidden away back there in the darkness.

[self-deleted_user]

I'm ambidextrous but usually use my right hand although at times, my left hand/side is naturally better at things. (Example: in capoeira my macacows and queda de rins are much better on my left side than my right, my left arm is stronger than my right arm, but my right side is more flexible than my left)

I have never been "normal" (I'm a grad student, that's not normal! lol) I was homeschooled when I was younger and so I never learned the whole "follow the crowd" thing, I often get into trouble by not following the "system" in public schools/college/uni but so far have always managed to back the admin into a corner with their own rules and win and I called public schools the Ticky Ticky Tack Club (remember the song about all the ticky tacky houses in the ticky tacky rows...?) and hated them when I was forced into them in 7th grade. I bucked the system the whole way through and was never popular, especially since most of my best friends in the public school system were either those "weird art kids" but I liked them since they didn't conform and expressed themselves anyway, and my other good friends were the "dumb kids" who no one would associate with because they rode the short bus type thing. But I liked them, they weren't mean and judgemental like the others were.

Oh, and I don't want kids. I'd like to be an aunt, but I don't want my own kids. I like playing with kids when they are in good moods. As soon as they get crabby/whiney/sick/complaining/annoying/I get tired of playing kid games I want them back with their parents, lol. Really people are shocked when they hear this because people see me with kids and are always saying how awesome I am with them, and wonder if I'm an elementary school teacher or something even, and omg nooooo thank you do not like kids really. They are ok in little doses and some are never okay, eeesh, but in general, I don't like kids at all.

[Phil Winkler]

Actually, the Male/Female ratio in the NSS currently is 2.9 to 1.
7,871 Males
2,743 Females

One of these days I hope we get to the ratio in the song Surf City: "Two girls for every boy!"

[self-deleted_user]

That's definitly not the ratios I saw in TAG or the UK. in the SJVG though it seems to be pretty durn good, groups have been about equal much to my happy surprise! I wonder what the "active caver" stats are for male:female, which is a little harder to measure. Anyone can join the nss even if they don't actually go caving all that often. ;)

My nss number is cool 62404...even numbers and easy to remember, and can make jokes about 404 errors too.

[Phil Winkler]

The ratio at any particular caving event is totally unpredictable as you know, I'm sure. The numbers above simply count the M/F members in our database who do have an entry in the Gender field. There are 188 blank ones, but they could very well be subscribers or institutional members with no gender.

In my view there are way more women caving now then when I started back in the early 70s. And that's a good thing. Same with the military.

[Teresa]

Actually, the Male/Female ratio in the NSS currently is 2.9 to 1.
7,871 Males
2,743 Females

2.9 to 1 aka rounded: 3 to 1 = real data

Totally unscientific SWAG: 4 to 1.

Not a bad guess, Phil, not bad at all!
Teresa

[JR-Orion]

After being into astronomy (pretty much a total boys club) and paintball (got shot at by a few women from time to time), I was pleasantly surprised by the nice mix of men and women who like to go caving.

Now that I think about it, all those hobbies involve lots of gear and being out in the middle of nowhere with groups of strangers. Two out of three involve darkness.

[muddyface]

I would also imagine if you manage to go underground enough it completely screws up your circadian rhythms. We have a wonderful little blurb on the back page of our club info sheets about caving that goes like this. Surgeon General's Warning: Caving may cause cancer, dirt under, finger nails, nepotism, antidisestablishmentarianism, low sperm count, unwanted pregnancy, PTA joining, and general failure in life. I can't remember all of them but there's several dozen such maladies listed taking up about half a page. And you could say we are part of the true underground culture, the other underground culture being people who live in tunnels beneath cities.

[self-deleted_user]

I love how "low sperm count" is right before "unwanted pregnancy"

and somehow I doubt any of these are real....

[muddyface]

Ah, I finally have the full listing of the aforementioned maladies, the text was typed with a typewriter so it's a wee bit old but here it is.

WARNING:
The Surgeon General has determined that Caving can cause Cancer, Liver and Lung Disease, Miscarriages, Unwanted Pregnancies, Low Sperm Counts, Brain Tissue Damage, Muscular Dystrophy, Forgetfulness, Left-Leg Paralysis, Internal Hemorrhaging, Geekiness, Carbohydrates Deficiency, Negligence, Slow Motioness, Bureaucracy, Deforestation, Sexual Atrocities, Lack of Personality, Inflation, Heavy Machinery Malfunction, Anaphora, Plagiarism, Lying-to-Congress Disease, Gerrymandering, Incrimination, Schwa Deletion, Non-Confirmation Syndrome, Defenestration, Illiteracy, Sarcasm, Broccoli Overcooking, Frequent Defecation, Gossiping, Getting-Laid-on-the-First-Date-Syndrome, Mass Extinction, Ozone Depletion, Global Warming, Gas Leaks, Hailstorms, Arms Race, Legs Race, Gender Confusion, Transexualism, Misunderstandings, Gibberish, Boredom, Nausea, Vomiting, Hyperbation, Hyperbole, Manuscript Loss, Anarchism, Liposuction, Unsuccessful Barbecuing, Gargling, BONKing, Mavisms, Talking-in-Third-Person-Syndrome, Limosine Overcrowding, Elevator Stalling, Messianism, Low Scoring on Standardized Tests, PBS Pledging, PTA Joining, PTL Propaganda, S&L Bailouts, Dirt Under your Fingernails, Deficit Spending, BL&T Indigestion, Armpit Enlargement, Proletarianization, Antidisestablishmenterianism, Panic, Disillusionment, Asymmetrical Twins, Helmet Head, Appointment Cancellation, Foreplay Disruption, Stuttering, Dogmatism, Bath Tub Clogging, Eviction, Infant Mortality, Cryptorchitis, Shistosomiasis, Nepotism, Baldness, Bad Spelling, Maximum Verbosity, and General Failure in Life.